The BBC Have Your Say forums have always been full of ignorant morons, but it looks now like the BNP are making a concerted effort to use the site as a platform for their views.
Here is a selection of the highest voted comments today:
No elections in my area this time but I would have voted BNP. The only party with the nuts to tell it how it really is.
Blah Blah Blah, Soham
Just hope it is a candidate who will stop the mega mosque!
Keith Waters, Ely, United Kingdom
Looking at the results, it seems unlikely that the BNP really has that much support. More likely, they have rallied a significant number of their supporters to vote for these kinds of comments to get them to the top of the list.
At least, I hope that’s what is happening, because being half British / half Asian I’m kin of worried when people vote for a party that is directly opposed to my existence. It just shows how bad things still are when I’m not even sure I should admit to something like that – even the hint of it seems to make people nervous and wary of you.
5 Comments
I think you’re mistaken about a both your concerns.
1. The BNP is not capable of organising people to do this; this is genuine sentiment, and often from people who would never give any indication of being pro-BNP in public – the anonymity of the internet enables people to speak more openly than they would, as there is less fear of intimidation. In many cases it’s people “threatening to vote BNP” in the hope of instigating some change, and a response to an aggressively far left and bigoted BBC. There is a lot of ignorance and misunderstanding of what the BNP is all about – the irony is that a lot of these people who call them Fascist, have never heard of or read Giovanni Gentile, and don’t really don’t understand what Fascism is – or that it is exactly what they themselves are engaged in!
2. The BNP is not “opposed to [your] existance” (see ignorance above); you are (I assume) half Japanese, half British, that makes you ethnically British as much as ethnically Japanese. The BNP is not “racist” (racism does not actually exist, only ethnicity does), it is “ethnocentric” – that’s a crucial difference.
What you might think of as “racism” as being “phenotypophobia” – that brown skin is dirty; or connected to intelligence is really an American concept (like “whiteness”).
Why? Well, Americans are immigrants, and are very conscious of the fact that they are taking the land of an indigenous ethnicity, and in order to justify this theft, have to assume the Darwinian notion that they are successful because they are superior: the notion of “whiteness” concocted to unite similar people with similar culture (note that the catholic peoples: irish; italians; are only latterly admitted into this “whiteness”); emancipation of slaves was an obvious threat, and you get the defensive reaction and the whole “white pride worldwide” cult – a very American thing.
In contrast, in Europe – as with Japan – you have an autochthonous population evolving from aboriginal populations and very tiny and very occasional inward migrations of verissimilitudinous peoples and cultures absorbed completely and rapidly to point of complete subsumation. The tension only persisting with those who resist this process: Jews; Roma; whatever else.
The real question is, why do you as a person of mixed British and non-British ethnicity feel any kind of commonality with Muslim Pakistansi and Bengalis stalwartly and aggressively refusing to integrate?
I actually did a degree in Japanese, and there were a few with Japanese mums (as is usually the case), and essentially I feel commonality with them as fellow Brits; but this is clearly because it’s obvious that they are not aliens by ethnicity or culture; whereas, many well-known groups of people in certain no-go areas of urban Britain are simply completely alien… all the paperwork in the world won’t make me feel that they are fellow Brits: they are not; they can never be. There is nothing ethnically, culturally, emotionally British about them – you may as well assign a random nationality to them… I don’t see any evidence that they love Britishness and have always wanted to be British and shake off the shackels of their culture of origin. More to the point; as you must know yourself, when you have a family of mixed ethnicity, language, and culture, one prevails: and it’s invariably the one of the place the family lives it – you can only have one native language.
This doesn’t mean I’m going to join the BNP or rush out and vote for them; but it does mean I understand what these supposed troglodytes are trying to express but can’t articulate. It would be no bad thing if the BNP became a larger party, for the simple reason that it would force the powers that be to engage with people and deal with the issue, instead of self-righteously vilifying and condemning people (lie true Fascist bigots) for failing to conform to the will of the regime, and behaving only as their evolutionarily psychological neurobiology determines (don’t believe me… start with Sherif’s Robber’s Cave experiment).
By all means, condemn people for being nasty and hurting people, but do yourself a favour and read up about logical fallacies before spewing out such sweeping generalisations such as “HYS forums are full of bigoted morons” – learn what the word “bigot” means (irrational intolerance: stubborn refusal to accept new info)… you might… just maybe… be wrong.
“Check yourself, before you wreck yourself”
Actually, I am half Asian – my father’s family is originally from Pakistan. Japanese people are not Asians, they are orientals. They are a different race of people.
The BNP is opposed to mixed race relationships. I am the product of a mixed race relationship. If the BNP had it’s way, I would not have been born.
Nick Griffin said “We don’t hate anyone, especially the mixed race children who are the most tragic victims of enforced multi-racism, but that does not mean that we accept miscegenation as moral or normal.” My parents relationship was not abnormal or immoral, and I am not a tragic victim of anything but a loving family life and excellent, open-minded upbringing.
I strongly believe that immigrants should integrate as much as possible, as my father did. I want to live in Japan, and unlike many Brits living in Spain I would do everything I can to integrate. I don’t know why you think I feel some kind of commonality with immigrants who don’t integrate, be they in this country or any other, because I don’t.
I also don’t think loving “Britishness”, however you define that, is necessary to be a valuable and integrated member of society here. I don’t love Britishness, in many ways I despise it, but I am British, lived here all my life, white and fully integrated. Like apparently a lot of people here, I want out, and not because of the immigrants – because of the other British people. I tend to agree that people like you, who are so far removed from reality, are not particularly extreme in terms of views. After all, the Daily Mail and The Sun are the two most popular newspapers.
Before even considering voting for the BNP, I suggest you read some of their literature, the stuff they don’t generally hawk when campaigning in an attempt to seem more electable. The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party) is quite a good introduction, with well referenced links to further information.
You suggest I “check myself”. Well, I suggest you do the same. Consider all the assumptions you made about me, without actually knowing anything, and all the conclusions you drew from those assumptions. Prejudice is the act of judging something before you are in full possession of the facts and have considered it from all angles, which is precisely what you have just done.
“Actually”
1. Japan is in Asia… please!
2. There are no “races”, never mind “oriental” or “asian” – where exactly do you suppose this imaginary line is drawn?
3. The BNP is not opposed to “mixed-race” relationships, they have mixed-ethnicity members, and mixed-ethnicity candidates. Have you ever read anything on their site or do you just parrot what people tell you? Don’t you have a mind of your own to think? Eyes of your own to read with?!
“If the BNP had it’s way, I would not have been born.” is the most preposterous drivel I’ve ever heard. Where are you getting this tripe from?
If you want to be accurate, and I’ll assume that you mean “If the BNP was elected when [my] parents were conceiving”… you would still have been born, but your parents would have either been denied British residency, or would have been deported. The BNP are actually anti-abortion… did you know that?
That quote does not mean that you “would not have been born”. It does mean that they recognise that mixed-ethnicity relationships present culture-clash and moral problems.
The tragedy he is alluding to is the crisis of identity that all mixed-ethnicity people face, especially when not part of the indigenous population of a country they are resident in.
The reason why I suggested you appear to be expressing commonality with those mentioned is due to the quote you placed about the megamosque, and your condemning of people who want to stop it.
Britishness is not a vague collection of abstract nouns that anyone from anywhere in the world can subscribe to. Your Britishness is not due to the fact that you were born and raised here, but due to your British genes. Cliff Richard and Spike Milligan and Joanna Lumley were born and raised in India, but that does not make them Indian; their ethnicity: culture and genetics (or “blood”, to use street language) is what defines their British identity.
There you go again with a reckless, logically fallacious, prejudicial statement. I am not “removed from reality” – I am reality! It is reality that the people who post on BBC websites exist – that is reality, you must accept it as such, otherwise it is YOU who are “removed from reality”, because you want to deny that views in opposition to yours exist or are legitimate.
You show no signs of much education beyond GCSE in the consistent lack of logic or evidence to back up the conceited incipient generalisations you make. You assume, that your views are the correct ones in a bigoted religious way, and look down on any other, whilst singularly refusing to open your mind to anything that might challenge them… I mean, you can’t even be bothered to read a BNP manifesto by all accounts.
I don’t read newspapers; but I did used to work for them, and I understand very well how they work. I suppose you think that the Guardian is the “goodies” and the Mail is the “baddies” or something conveniently simplistic. None of them are either.
Let me just burst your bubble quickly. I’m on my third degree, and my views are meticulously and academically formed, critically thought through, and rigorously reexamined when new information is presented.
The average “anti-fascist” seems to get their opinions off t-shirts, and cannot even explain why they think what they think when put under any intellectual pressure.
So don’t patronise me with “before you even…”
You are clearly not even objective enough and trained enough in critical thinking to extract the scant wheat from the pile of chaff that comprises the average Wikipedia article.
That article is not “quite good”, it’s absolute transparently unobjective propaganda frantically tapped out by nescient adolescents. A few references at the end of an article does not guarantee veracity or that the reference-places have even read or meaningfully interpreted the contents of said references. You’ve really got a lot to learn if you think that that would pass muster in academic circles.
I know exactly what prejudice is, and it’s exactly what you have done to me, as you clearly fail to realise.
Prejudice is actually how you approach information, and is an ontological necessity for human beings, [read up on Karl Popper's "background knowledge"], we all, by function, have to make reasonable assumptions in order to function in the world – such as assuming that reality is real for instance.
My assumption that you were half Japanese was reasonable, because:
a. Your page contains Japanese text at the top
b. You describe yourself as half-Asian, and Japan is in Asia, and Japanese are commonly regarded as Asians
My assumption that you feel some commonality with non-integrators was reasonable because you appeared to be criticising those who were expresssing resentment about the mega-mosque.
In contrast, YOUR prejudices, that:
a. The views you complain about are “obviously” wrong
b. The BNP has some means of co-ordinating the posts
c. The BNP objects to your existence
d. The Japanese are not Asians
e. The BNP are opposed to “mixed-race” relationships
f. The BNP would have somehow prevented your birth
g. none of the British in Spain make efforts to integrate
h. Britishness is conferred by Jus Soli
i. That I am removed from reality
j. That I read the Sun and Daily Mail (or any newspaper)
k. That I have never read any BNP literature
l. That the Wikipedia article is a “good introduction”
m. That I drew lots of conclusions from my three working assumptions (the first two being “a.” and “b.”; the third being that you’re about 18)
are all entirely unreasonable prejudices, and evidence of a lack of awareness of logical fallacies, and of the necessity for opinions to be both based on evidence and well-reasoned.
So, I repeat, check yourself, because you have just singularly failed to prove your case that I am “prejudiced”; and unequivocally demonstrated the truth depth and breadth of your own prejudice and bigotry.
Let’s address a few of your points. Again, you seem to be jumping to conclusions…
2. Well, the BNP certainly thinks there are different races: membership is restricted to “indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ‘Indigenous Caucasian’” according to the constitution (http://web.archive.org/web/20070629010001/http://www.bnp.org.uk/resources/constitution_8ed.pdf)
You can argue the semantics of calling it race or not, but the bottom line is that people with non-white skin are not welcome in the BNP.
3. Again, you have misinterpreted what I said. My mother is English. My genetic make-up is 50% white Caucasian, from a Welsh family. As the quote from Nick Griffin shows, the BNP is against mixed race relationships and especially mixed race children. The line is some rubbish about diluting centuries old British families. If they had been in power when my parents got together, they would probably never have met and I would never have been born.
I know the BNP is anti-abortion. I am not. They are also homophobic (RE:Brand Episode 2 “Naziboy”). I am not.
Oh, and I did read the BNP manifesto (linked to above) and I am educated to degree level. Please refrain from personal attacks.
I don’t read newspapers regularly either. I don’t think the Guardian are “goodies” (I don’t even believe in the absolute concept) but it is my opinion that anyone who can’t see past it’s hate fuelled rantings is an idiot. Labelling the “baddies” is far to simplistic though.
“Let me just burst your bubble quickly. I’m on my third degree, and my views are meticulously and academically formed, critically thought through, and rigorously reexamined when new information is presented.”
Your credentials prove nothing. Einstein was wrong about some things. Being highly educated does not make your opinion automatically more valid than mine. You have to make a good argument. Anything else is simple arrogance. I mean, presumably you have at least heard of John Stewart Mill?
Seriously, I would love to have a rational debate about what “Britishness” is. I disagree strongly that genetics and ethnicity have anything to do with it. Culture is the only benchmark if you ask me, and considering the culture of many “ethnically British” people I think you have to conclude that it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.
BTW, did you actually read the Wikipedia article? You say “a few references” but actually there are currently 185. I have examined many of them myself, and tend to agree with the conclusions drawn (otherwise I would edit the article). If you disagree with it, please feel free to edit it. Can you, for example, provide references to refute any of the statements that have been made?
I am well aware of Popper’s work, being an amature student of philosophy. Your assumptions go way beyond what is necessary to construct a reasoned argument though (which so far you have failed to do – for example, you have not said why you think ethnicity is an important part of Britishness).
You clearly don’t understand what Popper was getting at, because he certainly wasn’t advocating or justifying the kind of leaps you made.
“My assumption that you feel some commonality with non-integrators was reasonable because you appeared to be criticising those who were expresssing resentment about the mega-mosque.”
Then your assumption was entirely wrong. My criticism of the person who posted that comment has nothing to do with people integrating or not, and everything to do with the manner in which it was made. I’m sorry to generalise but your actions do seem to be typical of those on the far right – deliberately or otherwise misinterpreting and misrepresenting what I say and launching personal attacks from a platform of intellectual superiority.
I mean, seriously, how can you claim to have any academic credentials at all? How is “l. That the Wikipedia article is a “good introduction”” a prejudice? It’s an opinion. I never said “none of the British in Spain make efforts to integrate”. I’m not 18, but even if I was what difference would it make to any logical argument I make? That’s just blatant ageism! It’s the very definition of prejudice – you assume my arguments are less valid because of what you assumed my age to be.
from what i`ve seen, the BNP utilises knee jerk terms like “mega mosque” to scare people into voting for them under the banner of “you`re losing your country, they took our jobs, kick everyone out and all our problems will go away!!”
they offer quick fix solutions (that won`t work) to make the easily led think it`s a good idea; to my mind their supporters are as incredible as they are.
if white people are so great, why are the BNP such douches?
a lot of THEM are highly educated and qualified, but you can`t polish a turd, and no amount of eloquence will ever make an underlying agenda of “white is right” seem like a good idea to anyone with half a brain and the willingness to engage it. Whether or not you think things were better “in the old days” (remember, when christmas wasn`t a taboo? ;) ) is irrelevent, we`re moving FORWARDS not backwards and whinging about things that aren`t going your way is a waste of breath, maybe adapting and working out an agenda that will actually benefit the residents of our country would be better than spamming a BBC message board.
bottom line: racism bad. even if it DOES have a phd.